00:00:00 Kevin

I was in a Vipassana meditation, which is a 10 day silent meditation thing. Wake up at 4:00 AM and do meditations all day until 9:00 PM when you go to bed. Rinse and repeat for 10 days and on day six or something of this completely silent. No phones, no journaling, no music, no podcasts, no reading, no writing, just meditating, eating, bathroom, sleep. And on day 6 during Vipassana, what you get for your dinner is 2 pieces of fruit, an apple and an orange, or an apple and a banana. And on about Day 6, after six days of silence, we were queuing up for some… We’re queuing up for our pieces of fruit and there’s lots of these printed signs that say two pieces of fruit per student. And as I’m watching the queue, I’m standing there in silence, being awake from 4:00 AM for the last six days, and I can see a couple of guys at the front and they’re taking like 3 pieces of fruit. And as I stood in the queue, I could hear my mind. I’m going to swear now. So this is just the inner workings of my mind. And I can hear my mind saying, “Hey, it says 2 pieces of fruit on the sign, not 3. Why are you taking 3 pieces of fruit? What sort of person takes 3 pieces of fruit. All of us guys are still queuing up.” I could hear this in my mind going, and just watch that and go, Kev, it’s not your fruit. You’re not taking it. It’s none of your damn business what the guy is doing. And then to ask myself, where else in my life does my mind want to get involved in things that are absolutely none of its business? And the answer to that is, all the time when I hear myself or my mind wanting to get involved in things. I have a little mantra to myself now. I hear my mind getting involved in stuff and I just say, Kev 2 pieces of fruit, just immediately brings me back to the present moment. So mindfulness has taught me to watch this monkey mind doing its thing, out of control, being crazy, and to not always follow it.

Rosemary:
This is the Gifts of Trauma podcast, stories of transformation and healing through compassionate inquiry.

00:02:37 J’aime
Welcome to the show, welcome to the gifts of trauma. This is J’aime coming in today and I’m welcoming my brother and the co-host, co creator, co conspirator, co dreamer of so many co-s to be named still in our future, Mr. Kevin Young.

00:02:56 Kevin
Yeah, I like the last one best. I like the co conspirator. I like that one that that seemed to resonate with me – great to be here.

00:03:04 J’aime
That one came pure out of our synergy. It’s great to meet you and presents today. This was a great joy getting to know you a little more kind of through the virtual space. And now I look forward to taking and gathering the bits that seem the most relevant in our harmonic today and joining them in this in this conversation.

00:03:29 Kevin
I’m a little bit frightened at what is out there online about me because, yeah, I like to be playful. I mean, there’s nothing. There’s nothing, nothing that I’m honestly worried about more. There might be some embarrassing stuff for me, or I’ve been playing music or telling stories online, and I’m thinking, oh, I hope J’aime didn’t find me reading that book or playing my guitar on Facebook. But I’m open to it al; J’aime

00:03:58 J’aime
Well, you have been very courageous and loving with sharing your experiences of your life on a lot of different platforms. And I love that about you. It just shows me, it shows me your deep service. It just runs all the way through you. And something I discovered that I didn’t know about you and I both, is we both have a deep hospitality background and you have a cafe background. You have your parents for caterers. You shared a story in something at some point that I read about you being that cafe owner who would show up whenever somebody needed a teaspoon. It’s a kind of morsel of information that tells a lot about a person and also something I related deeply to, and I think a lot of people might as well. I sense there might be a few heads nodding out there, in resonance.

00:04:55 Kevin
Yeah, yeah. J’aime I don’t know whether that’s a learned thing or, or that is a, an innate thing or a trauma response, possibly the latter. That ability to know what people need, possibly before they even do, has been a real skill and a real beautiful thing and something that I have to manage as well. It can have me being a little bit overzealous and caretaking. So it’s a real skill. and, and I really celebrate it in myself and it just needs some minding, some caution.

00:05:38 J’aime
Yeah, that and another quote I came across really took me to the heart of, I think what we’re going to be, the space will be in today and what the listeners don’t don’t know because they can’t see. And even you can’t see, I’m gonna show you. My hand has been on my heart ever since I sat down with you because I feel like I share a lot of this walk with you. I too am a great anticipator of other people’s needs. And I feel like this is going to be a beautiful space to carve out, to talk about, the origins of this sort of behaviour, the gifts and the way into truth. So the other quote that I read that kind of stopped me in my tracks. This is a recent blog post you shared back in April, and it was really speaking to the themes we’re going to be covering today, Attachment, Adaptation, and Addiction. Do you know which post I’m talking about? 

Kevin :I do
In that there’s a sentence that says, “I could hide myself so well that I was a delight to look after.” That hit me on many, many layers. And the first thing it made me wonder, because I know you’re a parent of two nearly full grown women now. It made me wonder how much of your parenting experience and your experience of the two of them growing up mirrored to you something that you didn’t get when you were growing up. Because to say I was a delight to look after because I hid myself so well, that brings in a perspective, a very weird and looking back kind of perspective. And it feels like a good place to start today if you’re happy to, to just jump in there.

00:07:26 Kevin
Well, I can recognize in my own children that they didn’t hide themselves. They were funny, cheeky, passionate, kind, intelligent, confident. They learned very quickly to say no, I don’t want to do that or I don’t like that or I don’t want to eat that or I don’t want to wear that. No, I think for, for me as a child… I was speaking to my mom recently and I was actually talking about my own childhood and, and her experience. My mum was, you know, less than 20 and she was maybe 21 and she had three kids. I was asking her about her, just how it was for her, you know, how that was. We lived in a really underprivileged area of Belfast, a very dangerous time. And my mom was talking about a lot of the time she was afraid, she was lonely. And I was asking her about me. And that that’s where that story or that quote arose from. But I mean, I knew it for a long time. And my mom told me that, you know, even my birth, she said you just arrived. You just arrived and, and you were just so peaceful and you were just so quiet. And, you know, I kind of imagined myself landing out of my mother, you know, that this waddling baby with a smile and you know, an I’m OK expression on its face. I don’t need anything. And my mom told me that I had to have an older sister and she’s just just under 2 years older than me. And she is an absolute beautiful woman. Growing up, and we’re pretty sure, you know, she won’t mind me saying this. We’re pretty sure that if she was born today, she would be diagnosed as ADHD very early in her life, you know, but that wasn’t the thing back in 1974, 1975. So my mom was 18 years old, already had a child who was full on, a very busy child. And then I came along. And then very soon after my younger sister came along who was very clingy. My mom would describe her as very attached to my mother. So there I was in between crazy sister, clingy sister and and my mom was like, you were just, you were just a delight. You just, you were just a delight. And she tells stories that people would come round to, you know, her sisters or family to help my mom out. And they would say, I I’m not taking not taking her, as in my older sister. I’m not taking her, but I’ll take him and and I would get taken to stay in other people’s houses and, you know, get looked after because I was a delight. I was just an easy child to look after and maybe there’s part of my nature that is easy going. I think there is to some degree. And I think doing the work that we do, I now understand that I learned very, very, very early. There’s no point. There’s no point making noise. You’re, you’re not, you’re not going to get attended to. This woman, my mother, a lovely woman, she’s preoccupied. So yeah, I learned to be very self-sufficient, I learned to look after myself, to be pleasant, be polite, be helpful. I think that traits or those traits are still present today.

00:10:30 J’aime
I’m not doubtful in any way that you arrived with this. As I look at you now, clear eyed, peaceful loving self, I mean I see that essence, I witnessed that essence in you and I love that essence in you. I was wondering as you were just talking to me about this delightfulness that you brought into people’s lives and and knowing what we know also about also learned to hide yourself and that somehow you conveyed to her, it’s OK, I don’t need anything. It’s OK, I don’t need anything. What’s coming up for you?

00:11:12 Kevin
Yeah, I recognize now that there’s sadness around that. J’aime, yeah. A lot of that was a learned behaviour. Also knowing then that the people pleaser in me, the person that didn’t like to upset people, that didn’t like to be a bother or a burden or an annoyance. That part of me also led me into very difficult situations where I wasn’t able to stand as myself, that I would give up of myself, so that the other wouldn’t be upset. And it’s really lovely to hear you say you’re looking at me now. All clear eyed and present and loving and still. That has been a lot of work to return to because there was a lot of space in between that loving, kind, gentle, nice child. There’s a lot of space between that and maybe over the last 8 or 10 years going back to that, you know, there was a 30 year. In the middle where it was a little bit more chaotic. Let’s put it that way. 

You know, as I look very briefly over my life, I can really see that I ran away from myself. I tried to run away from myself for a long, long time. It happened this week and I’ll share something with you this week. But through my whole life and you know, people have said to me, hey, what is it with you? You’re different. What does that even mean? What do you, what is that, it just does not compute. I do not know what you’re talking about. Please help me understand what you mean. I don’t know what you mean when you say that to me. And this week, just this week, one of my colleagues said that she was talking to one of her colleagues at our conference and they had a conversation that I arose in. I do some work with this, this friend of mine talking about meditation. And the person at the conference is, “Oh, I’m so happy you’re doing some work with Kevin. He hugged me on the last day of the conference and it was the safest hug I have ever had.” 

I don’t know what that means. I don’t get it. I don’t. You know what, what does that mean? I’m really coming much more into this space where I can see what I do for people and how I make people feel and, and how people seem to be and when, when they’re near me or with me. I still find it really difficult.

00:13:22 J’aime
Can I offer something that’s coming up a little bit as you’re asking this question? Why, why, why? What are they talking about? There’s a flavour to this inquiry that reminds me of a blog post you wrote back in 2020, I think, about being a fraud. Yeah. Is that fair to say that it’s related?

00:13:43 Kevin
Totally. Completely. This idea of hiding myself, I think I have hidden over those years. I have hidden myself so much that I couldn’t even see myself. I had hidden myself so well. I I didn’t even know where I was. I couldn’t find myself. That’s very cliched spiritual talk and finding yourself. But I had done such a good job of hiding myself that when people reflect me back to me, well I’ve seen that lately over the last few years, I’ve started to see that and really acknowledged that and lean into that and, and see it as a great privilege that people would say that sort of thing to me. There’s still, there’s still an aspect of myself that sees me as a crazy, bumbling Irish man who doesn’t really know much about anything and breezes through life seeming to be, unannoyed, if there’s such a word, not upset by anything. I quite often ask myself, you know, if I’m doing work with people in groups that you know, and, and there’s an upset or an annoyance. I really can’t find any anger or annoyance in me about this thing that everyone seems to be upset about. Is there something wrong with me? Should I be more annoyed? Should I be more upset? Should I be more angry? And it just, it just doesn’t seem to be there. It really doesn’t.

00:14:59 J’aime
That makes sense to me because I really believe about you that your core essential self is very connected to source. And that too did not just come. I mean, yes, it did. You were born with it, but it was a long trip back, as you said, it was a 30 year trip back. And I’m watching a big pull of – pull of air as I say that to you. So let’s talk a little bit about that time in between and that journey. And as you were talking, I think it’s also important for the audience that we place you within a cultural context, because when you talk about being an anticipator of needs and of watching everyone and being very careful not to create a burden for anybody, I’m hearing a vigilance that sounds familiar. And it’s reminding me of the vigilance that you expressed when you were talking to Steven Brown in the conversation that we’ll reference in the show about growing up in in Northern Ireland. So I think it’s also important that this isn’t just the small family unit, but you also were growing up in this, as you mentioned, very dangerous time.

00:16:05 Kevin
And we learned very, very early to be careful, to be vigilant, to be mindful of where we could go, where we couldn’t go, and to live with a lot of fear. Fear was just normal. It’s just normal going to school, coming from school,  going to work, coming from work, which discos we went to as kids or which, you know, or which pubs we drank in as young people. You had to be really vigilant and really careful. And I met someone just recently, uh, who’s been a friend of my sister’s for 40 years. And he said to me, do you remember the first time I met you? No, I don’t. He said you were, you were being beat up on the street. In the town that I lived in and this guy and another, another guy intervened, kind of rescued me from that fight and brought me back to my father’s fish and chip shop. I don’t remember that, but that’s how it was. You know, that’s how it was just getting beat up on the street. And here I was, this soft little pleasing, accommodating boy getting beat up on the street. So yeah, we learned to be very vigilant. Another reason again, I think my mother, who I can only imagine would be very stressed with three children, living where she lived. Yeah, she was very stressed and overwhelmed and so learning how to read my mother, and know what was going on and where to be and where to stand and where not to stand. And I think I learned very quickly to read bodies, energy, people, faces, whatever that is. So again, that has stayed with me, that trait, that ability to read. Did I answer your question?

00:17:53 J’aime
Yeah, you did. You did. Because we’re talking about all of the things that shape you to be a certain way. And when you say I don’t know what you’re talking about when you describe me, it also feels related to what is at the heart of the conversation. When we talk about attachment, adaptation, addiction, and really, truly when we talk about trauma, we’re talking about a disconnection from the self. So what you’re talking about is illustrating and painting the picture of how you got disconnected from yourself. You don’t even remember being brought back to this fish and chips shop. You were in sheer survival and, I also, when I look back and I imagine you, I see you completely tracking the world outside of you, because you had to. What other choice do you have?

00:18:45 Kevin
It’s really nice that you said that. J’aime, because we’re talking about the 30 years In between being 10 and being 40, I was having a conversation with Sat Dharam’s husband, Par Prakash, and we were just chatting about spirituality and religion, this type of thing. I had a real wave of sadness. Oh, it’s just landing right now at how I would have loved to have found this version of myself when I was 20 or 17, and to have found spirituality, to have found compassion, to have found, not found compassion, but find a world where I could be compassionate. The compassion was always there to find the space where I could be that and, and, and not be criticized or shamed for that. Yeah, it really made me sad that I wasn’t able to find that so much earlier in my life. But I couldn’t because of how I was trying to survive. And on that spirituality kind of religion thing, again, growing up in the north of Ireland, religion to me that there wasn’t a lot of distance between religion and bombs, or religion and guns. So there was a short journey to to move from God to yeah, guns. 

And I absolutely did not want to be involved with violence or guns or hatred or sectarianism or homophobia. I knew from a really early age. I didn’t want to be. That didn’t make me feel comfortable. But yet there was no space to be spiritual or religious where I came from, unless you were involved with segregation and separation and sectarianism, there was no space for that. So I, I ran. I ran so hard, and tried so hard to get away from this Source calling, this compassion calling. I tried so hard and use many, many, many vices to move myself away from this real spiritual calling, because I had to. I had to do that to survive. It’s not a regret on my part, it’s just a sadness that I, I wish I had found this home for my spirituality and my compassion. I wish I’d have found it 30 years ago. But I didn’t.

00:20:57 J’aime
But I didn’t. I share that I feel that I want to just invite everyone to have just a moment because I’m feeling like this is a reflective experience of a lot of people who do come back home to themselves. And I want to say, while we’re taking a moment as we look around at the world, it hasn’t gotten any less chaotic. And I’m just really grateful that somehow in this world, you’ve managed to do it now. I’m so grateful we’re here getting to do this and feel this and experience this. Yeah.

00:21:35 Kevin
Can I say something about that, J’aime? And the way for me to do that was an indirect approach. I didn’t have to grow my compassion. I didn’t have to grow my spirituality. I didn’t have to grow my desire to be in connection with Source or presence or consciousness. I had to remove the barriers to it, which was shame, fear, addiction, grief. I had to work on those things and when I worked on those things, authenticity, you know, I worked on all those things as I am working on those things. Let me say that, healing them, or removing them, or or getting to know them, or being aware of them, then that compassionate spiritual connection to Source shines automatically. It’s already there. There’s no work to do with presence, no work to do with source. I just have to do the work of untangling those parts of my personality that I created years and years ago to survive.

00:22:35 J’aime
Right now all of us, anytime we turn on anything online, we’re advertised to, we’re offered something, always a thing to add on. And so I really appreciate you talking about, it’s not about adding anything on, it’s about looking at what’s in the way. And I would love to get back a little bit into this particular piece that you name around shame. There’s a couple things that come to mind to me. One of them is how is the good one, the quiet one, the one who doesn’t need anything? Of those three children, how does that one come into the world feeling shame for anything, for any need that they may have? That’s interesting to me how that forms. 

00:23:26 Kevin
Let’s just stay with that. Aren’t they exactly the same thing? Because of course I needed things. Of course I needed things. I was a young child. I was a boy. I, you know, I needed a lot of things, as all children do. I needed to be attuned to, I needed to be emotionally supported. I need to be held. I was highly sensitive. I needed to be celebrated for who I was, and at a really young age, you know,  I just was different. And of course I couldn’t ask for those things. So then they became shameful. There’s something wrong with me, you know, I don’t want to fight. And I don’t want to do these things and I don’t want to… Yeah. So there’s something wrong with me. So immediately that shame is built in.

00:24:06 J’aime
And what’s underneath the shame?

00:24:08 Kevin
Fear. Fear of needing and being rejected. Fear of needing and being told you can’t have it, fear of being ignored. Fear of fear of being soft and gentle and kind and compassionate. Fear of being honest. J’aime, I grew up, I had lots of cousins around my same age and I moved away from Belfast when I was six or seven. And a lot of those young men, as a lot of young men did in that time, went on to steal cars and, you know, get into real trouble with police and stuff, you know, that just wasn’t me, that just never was. So already you’re different from the masses. You’re different from the mass population. And that’s not to blame the mass population, because they were only responding as best as they could. Yeah, I was a very gentle, easygoing, placid, timid child in a really aggressive and dangerous world. So you have to hide yourself and that’s where shame comes from.

00:25:07 J’aime

And I feel the sadness arising also in that, in that mixture of shame and fear, the sadness of not getting those needs met, of just knowing you’re going to take care of it yourself. There’s sadness, there’s a loneliness there. And…

00:25:26 Kevin
That, J’aime, that was the theme of my childhood, loneliness.

00:25:29 J’aime
It’s the name of the EP that you dropped, your first album, Lonely Demon.

00:25:36 Kevin
It is, you know, I think the name is gonna be self… describes itself. This there was an anger or a desire or a rage at the world that I can’t be myself and yeah I have to keep that demon all locked up and lonely. And yeah, that’s where that came from. That’s why that album is called Lonely Demon, because it’s lonely.

00:25:59 J’aime
Yeah, I just really appreciated the timing of you sharing that with the world, the time that you’re also sharing. “I have my certification as a compassionate inquiry therapist. I’m here for the world. I’m making myself very visible.” And also I’m releasing what feels, what I sense was a transmutation of that experience and that expression of the loneliness and the rage and the unmet needs through art. I mean, you started, you became a musician when you were 39. 

There’s a couple places I’d love to go. I’m going to offer you a couple, okay? Like the first one, the creative expression, the creative alchemy of how art, of how music served you. I would love to hear about that. But equally, what’s tearing me right now is coming back to this conversation about a highly sensitive boy in a time where certainly there was no language for that. And that’s what I think is alive and well and giving that very attuned, safe hug to people. Right? It’s that sensitive part of you that’s still different. Yeah. And how are you doing with that difference these days? How are you taking care of that different one?

00:27:12 Kevin
Yeah, let’s talk about that highly sensitive boy, and how I’m doing with that now. I’m absolutely celebrating that right now and embracing that and owning that. I recognize that’s why people like to work with me, because I make them. I don’t make them. I create a space or an environment where they perceive themselves to be safe. And it’s a real talent, skill, attribute that that I have that that I can do that and notice a real resonance in me to speak to you spiritually. I am not doing that. It is being done. You know it. It is being done that I am now in a space where I have worked enough on my own fear and shame to allow that highly sensitive person to shine, to be seen, to to be present. I’m noticing real ripples of sadness or something just.

00:27:59 J’aime
What’s coming up for you kind of physical sensations?

00:28:04 Kevin
In my torso where I, where I can hold that little, that little highly sensitive boy. And I think J’aime what I did was… I grew up and I woke up spiritually and I’ve now come to realize that I am 6’1” or 185cm tall. I’m 80 kilos. I’m big enough to look after myself. I’m 50 years of age and I’m prepared to stand up and say hello. This is it. And I am very mindful that all of us now have an end call button. Or we all walked in the door that we can walk out and I’m really happy to say to people, if you don’t like it here, you’re welcome to leave the same door that you came in. It’s okay by me. If you don’t want to be on this call, just press ‘end call.’ It’s okay by me. So I recognize there’s a real confidence in myself that I’m able to hold who I am. And I still don’t get it when people reflect it back to me. But to hold who I am, to be present, to be I am, just to be I am and, and be present with that. And people will come and people will go and people will like that and people will not like that. And that’s all okay. It’s really great. I have a beautiful community and circle of people around me that anyone is welcome to join and anyone is welcome to leave. So that highly sensitive little boy that wasn’t protected, wasn’t illuminated, wasn’t encouraged, wasn’t protected. I do that right now. I do that for myself mostly. Yeah. I’m proud of myself for that. I think that’s one of my greatest achievements.

00:29:36 J’aime
It’s the ultimate for all of us, as we’ve learned, as we share with others in this work, that the Western model of medicine is about getting rid of pain. Everywhere we look, we’re taught to get rid of our pain. And you talked about your 30 years of running away and trying to get rid of the pain. And we have other episodes where we really dive deep with our guests about addiction. You know, I think that our conversation here is about this holding. It’s about getting to the other side, about not running away because getting rid of is not healing. Healing is the holding of the self, the holding of the pain. Just being able to understand. And I’m sitting here talking to a Buddhist and a mindfulness practitioner, and I know you have things to say about what these modalities have given you in this capacity. I was hoping you could share a little bit with the listeners about how meditation and mindfulness, and Buddhism have given you this capacity to hold pain, because life is painful.

00:30:40 Kevin
It is J’aime, and I really thank you for that question. And as you were chatting, you said ‘the holding’ and, the word that arose for me, it’s not the holding, because that implies a duality, a separation. You know it’s the wholeness, it’s the wholeness of the person. And for me, spirituality isn’t about riding, getting rid, of or fixing or changing anything. It’s about the wholeness. Can I be with the wholeness of who I am? Can I be with it? I’m getting much better at that. And I really feel that Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta non-duality teachings have taught me so much about that and being in communities where you’re accepted,  certainly in Buddhist communities and Advaita communities that it is OK to be exactly as you are, because what you are, what you are is that whole mess. I do a lot of thinking when I’m lying in bed. Yeah, I’m going to sleep. And I was thinking about the phrase of a being, you know, whether that source as a being, or a person as a being. And I thought to myself, we are not a being, we are the beingNess and through Buddhist studies and Advaita Vedanta  studies learning what that being is not that being, but being not being, the beingness in in me is the same as the beingness in you and all our listeners and everybody else in the world. And when we lean into that, you know, as I kind of lean back into that, I am actually what I actually am. The truth of my nature is beingness, not a being, it’s beingness. And I really take such resolve and strength and power and agency from that, from realising I am beingness. And it also allows me, it really seems to feed into the humanness of my personality. I like to be really playful. And when I lean back and appreciate that I and you and everyone listening, is this emptiness as it is called in Buddhism, or Beingness or source? It really makes me look out into the world and absolutely have a smile on my face at every single thing I see. I just, being this conscious. I don’t speak about this a lot and here I am doing it on a podcast, and I’m happy to, but it really makes me that beingness. I look at the world and I’m in a complete state of awe, all the time, and appreciating that everything is everything. And from that, compassion grows. From that love grows. From that appreciation grows. And, those teachings, Buddhist teachings, Advaita teachings and meditation in particular, you know, to sit and sit in meditation for long periods of time, is a special thing.

00:33:37 J’aime
What does that teach you sitting in meditation for long periods of time? How does that help you when you step out into the world where you get cut off in traffic and all kinds of triggers happen?

00:33:50 Kevin
What it teaches me, J’aime, is that my mind is absolutely bonkers. That sort of teaches me that when I sit back and just watch my mind, I don’t know how anyone… Learn mindfulness, and you will never be bored again in your life. Because if I ever sense boredom come in, I just have to close my eyes and watch my mind and think my mind is absolutely bonkers. Bonkers! That’s what sitting in meditation for long periods of time does. It teaches me to give myself a little bit of distance between the bonkers-ness in my mind and to, to, to not always believe what it’s thinking or wanting to do or striving for or avoiding or craving… to just think that my mind’s doing that thing again. And it’s hilarious. You know, I was telling a friend that if someone put microphones in my house, (I live alone) and they heard me. I’m in constant dialogue with myself. Out loud. “Hey, Kev. You fancy a cup of tea, right? Yeah. Let’s do that.” And I laugh at myself at this. This mind that I have that is just so bonkers is the best word. I and I use that compassionately. And what mindfulness has taught me to do is to take a break from that, step back from that. To appreciate that that’s not the truth. That’s not what I actually am, to allow it to happen. I just, I know that it’s there and it, and it’s, it bonkers, but it’s not who I am. You know, through meditation, through mindfulness, particularly longer periods of meditation, you know, it really allows you just to step back from that a little bit. Can I tell a very brief story?

I’d like to tell you about this. I was in Vipassana meditation a couple of years ago. Maybe three years ago and Vipassana is a 10 day silent meditation thing. Wake up at 4:00 AM and you do meditations all day until 9:00 PM and you go to bed. Rinse and repeat for 10 days and on day 6 or something of this… completely silent, no phones, no journaling, no music, no podcasts, no reading, no writing. Just meditating, eating, bathroom, sleep. And on day 6, during Vipassana, what you get for your dinner is 2 pieces of fruit, an apple and an orange, or an apple and a banana. On about day 6, after six days of silence, we were queuing up for some… We’re queuing up for our pieces of fruit and there’s lots of these printed signs that say two pieces of fruit per student. And as I’m watching the queue, standing there in silence, been awake from 4:00 AM for the last 6 days, and I can see a couple of guys at the front and they’re taking like 3 pieces of fruit. And as I stood in the queue, I could hear my mind. I’m going to swear now. So this is just the inner workings of my mind. And I can hear my mind saying, “Hey Asshole, it says fucking two pieces of fruit on the sign, not 3. Why are you taking three pieces of fruit? What sort of asshole takes three pieces of fruit? All of us guys are still queuing up.” I could hear this in my mind going ‘rrrr’, just watch that and go, Kev, there it is. It’s not your fruit. You’re not taking it. It’s none of your goddamn business what the guy is doing. And then to ask myself, where else in my life does my mind want to get involved in things that are absolutely none of its business? And the answer to that is – all the time – when I hear myself or my mind wanting to get involved in things, I have a little mantra to myself now. I hear my mind getting involved in stuff, and I just say Kev, 2 pieces of fruit. And that just immediately brings me back to the present moment. So mindfulness has taught me to watch this monkey mind doing its thing, out of control, being crazy, and to not always follow it.

00:37:39 J’aime
I also see an unwiring of a learned behavior in that particular, very relevant example, of the service worker, you know, the one who grew up in a food service setting. I did also, I think read in another blog post where you talked about like being super.… No, it was a conversation on a show where you talked about going to a restaurant and you had terrible service. And it’s like, oh, that sounds exactly like me. Like you’ll never, if you’re a good server, if you’re a very attuned server, it’s over for you. Fine dining. As we have ideas about the way people need to be treated. It can ruin our good time, I think if it’s not going the way we think it should go. I bring this up because I’m hearing this way that we get into other affairs that truly have nothing to do with us, truly are none of our business. Everyone here listening has their example of where their mind and how their mind does that and the shitstorm that creates, internally, where that takes you, so far away from your own present moment experience and enjoying your delicious meal. Absolutely. So I’m appreciating that example because it takes us back around to something that feels really relevant, where we started this conversation of the gifts of trauma, truly. And I think that we walk our whole lifetime with the nuancing, the finessing of the gifts, of the pearls, that we glean from the grits of sand that used to really irritate our skin, you know, that have now become these incredible, incredible pearls that leave people having the best hug they’ve ever had in their life. This is a nuanced conversation. This is a nuanced exploration. And the other thing I wanted to relay, that I’m thinking about as you’re talking about all this meditation. Just as you standing in that line had the storm, the shit storm come through, it passed.

00:39:41 Kevin
Exactly.

00:39:42 J’aime
And what remained was a part of you that said, “O Kev,” so let’s talk a little bit about that too. I think that’s important as we close our conversation because this has to do with relational holding that we do for our clients. The practitioner, the one who learns to do this for themselves, is able to offer this. And then give the clients something that they didn’t get in their childhood, relational holding, someone connecting to them as they’re feeling their pain.

00:40:13 Kevin
Yeah, J’aime, thank you. And I think the greatest thing that I give people who work with me is to say to them that’s OK. When people are talking about their difficulties or their struggles or, or the pain that they have, or whatever else they’re experiencing, I would say, okay, can we just just stand with that? Can we be with that? You’re fine, you’re perfect. And I think people really appreciate that… that I have that part of me that, it’s all good. It’s all good. We can relax. You’re fine. You’re absolutely fine. And I don’t mean that in that dismissive, dismissive way a parent would say, there’s nothing wrong with you. Get on with it with that message to people that there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re fine. 

And when people hear that, I can see somatically their shoulders drop, their face relax, just to be in a space where whatever they’re bringing, not only is it fine, quite often when we take a little step back and look at it, hilarious, funny. You have this experience, it’s funny, you know, here I am freaking out about this thing where we take a little bit of distance from. I quite often laugh at it. Crazy that has happened for me and that this is going on in my mind. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re fine and you have this thing that operates and it’s OK. So, that part of me that can lean back into that holding, holding of myself and holding of others. I’m really happy that whatever that is, that has, it has allowed me to see it, it has revealed itself to me or it has revealed me to myself. I don’t know what way that line works, but whatever that is, that holding part of me, that heart that is playful and creative and humorous and loving and kind and caring and generous and forgiving. And I’m really happy that it revealed itself to me because I enjoy stepping back into that aspect of myself. That’s the truth isn’t it.

00:42:01 J’aime
Yeah, you arrive into a space where people can be met with compassion, sensitivity and ultimately Divine Comedy of the drama, and like you said the bonkers-esque quality of our our mindscape and this is an incredible gift that you have gleaned from all of these hours and all of this service that you’ve done to and for yourself that is also being slid over to the people that you witness. When you can bring in that dry humour, even, you know, with the team, when it gets intense, we’re creating something. It’s our baby. You know, we take it very seriously. Sometimes you bring a lightness, a levity, you touch all the places, and then you help us lift and you create space to laugh. And I think, you know, that’s something that we don’t find enough in this world, certainly with spiritual people. You know, as Richard Rudd says, spiritual people can be some of the most serious people. And so thank you. Thank you for bringing levity.

00:43:08 Kevin
You’re welcome. Can I add one other thing to that? Just a very brief thing. You know, I work with a lot of people that engage in psychedelics and psychedelic therapy, and I don’t do a lot of that at all, very, very little. But I often say to my psychedelic loving friends, and I’m going to swear again for the purpose of this story, I say to my psychedelic loving friends, “How fucking psychedelic do you want it to be? Look! Why? Like, look, holy shit, there’s like green things growing out of the ground and there’s balls of energy talking to each other through computer screens. And I mean, how much more psychedelic can it be? Like really?” I think that’s kind of my outlook on life.

00:43:57 J’aime
How much more psychedelic of a political landscape can we have?

Kevin: Totally!

J’aime: So true. So true.

00:44:07 Kevin
Yeah, I mean, makes me chuckle all the time.  I just have to laugh at it, with deep compassion, you know, laughing at the world, not laughing with the world, with deep compassion and thinking you’re fine, it’s okay, relax, you know, let’s talk about this. Let’s feel into it. Let’s be with it. We’re all good.

00:44:28 J’aime
Yeah, I really celebrate the journey of coming back to that and being that person again. Like, it would have been nice to find that 20 years ago. Sure, would have been great, but you also wouldn’t have the same capacity to witness people. I don’t believe your gift of sensitivity would be as widely shareable as it is, had you not gone through those experiences yourself. Just again, how the gift, how the gift works, it emerges through the shadow. Yeah.

00:45:05 Kevin
J’aime, I know our time’s coming to an end and I think the greatest gift that certainly compassionate inquiry has played a large part in, and meditation and spiritual inquiry has given me, is that for the most part, not all the time, but for the most part, I’m just happy being me.

00:45:25 J’aime
And for the people out there listening, that may find themselves in that fury of movement and motion and reactivity or perhaps in a non compassionate relationship with themselves, I was wondering if there’s anything in particular they need to know today.

00:45:49 Kevin
Just J’aime, that it’s all good. You’re OK. You’re OK. Yeah, just you, you’re OK. And if you don’t believe that or can’t believe that, then find a space where you can feel that. Find a space where you can bring your craziness, your wackiness, your whatever you bring, and for that to be OK.

00:46:23 J’aime
There’s nowhere to go. I don’t know where to go. There’s nowhere for me. I don’t have any space. There’s no space for me. I have to take care of everybody else. There’s too many things to do. 

What do you do with someone who believes that?

00:46:39 Kevin
OK. That’s how it is for you. OK, Just yeah, I’m not going to or force anyone to change or be any different. Yeah, if that’s what you, if that’s what you’re holding on to right now, that’s what you need to believe you get through. I was going to say, J’aime, I would also after saying that to my client or the person that I was working with, you’re OK. And for them to say, you know, I’m not there’s no space for me. I gotta look after everyone else and say, OK, sure. If that’s if that side is for you, great. And I can see myself just waiting a few seconds and then playfully saying, but I don’t believe you. I don’t believe that’s true. Uh, and you know, because we can all walk on the street, we can all find a field to stand beside. We can all look at the clouds. We can all take 5 minutes. That’s we can all sit on the loo. Uh, so I would, I would allow them to have that belief, and playfully say I don’t believe you.

00:47:47 J’aime
I think that’s beautiful. A playful reminder that we’re free. We are free.

00:47:55 Kevin
Yeah, If you choose to be so.

00:47:57 J’aime
The mind creates the world, right?

00:47:59 Kevin
Completely.

00:48:01 J’aime
Well, Kevin, I’m grateful to spend some time with you today and thank you. Thank you for sharing and thank you for being the sensitive person you are in this world and also simultaneously being so willing to show yourself and your sensitivity, to share yourself, to share your experience. I think that’s just an incredible milestone of growth for somebody who feels a lot, to put themselves out there so much.

00:48:26 Kevin
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure J’aime,. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

00:48:28 J’aime
Yeah. Thanks for being here, everybody. 

Rosemary: The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma, healing, transformation, and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity. Please note this podcast is for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for personal therapy or a DIY formula for self therapy.

We’d like to thank you for being here today, and we’d also like to thank our guests as well as Gabor Mate, Sat Dharam Kaur, and the Compassionate Inquiry admin team, marketing team, and podcast team. Please join us again next week to hear more stories of transformation and healing through Compassionate Inquiry.