00:00:02 Kevin
The undertone that I hear in that Sat Dharam, which is really delightful, is moving the responsibility for addiction away from someone who is addicted.

0:00:14 Sat Dharam

It is the responsibility of the community. Yeah. Let me understand you from a place of compassion and care. The compassion of understanding. Let me understand your trauma. What happened to you? That’s why you’re in this predicament right now. So there’s no blame, no shame. It’s just what happened to you. And then the next one is what happened to your ancestors, because the tendency to addiction, it could be from our childhood experience, but our childhood experiences, the trauma also can be passed down through several generations. So we may be reflecting, if we have an addiction, more also from our ancestors, what they went through. So it’s what happened to your ancestors. And then finally, the healing, eventually is you’re not what happened to you. Once we heal and process all of that, metabolize all of that, go through all that pain, release all that pain, get to the other side, then we recognize, oh, here’s back to my true identity. My true identity is not what happened to me. My true identity is this ever present essence in me that can never be damaged. That’s where we want to take people, but that’s a process. It’s a long process of healing that can be done only through relationship, I believe.

00:01:36 Rosemary
This is the Gifts of Trauma podcast stories of transformation and healing through compassionate inquiry.

00:01:53 Kevin
We’re back again for another episode of the Gifts of Trauma podcast from Compassionate Inquiry. Hello, my name is Kevin Young and I am here with Sat Dharam Kaur who is CEO… Would that be fair enough? CEO of Compassionate Inquiry Sat Dharam?. Co Director, Co director, along with Doctor Gabor Maté, of course, as your other Co director, and I’m really excited to have you here Sat Dharam, and our talk today is loosely based around the relationship of Compassionate Inquiry and addiction. And I wonder would you rather than me introduce you, would you like to take a few moments and introduce yourself? And I would be keen if you would do that with a finger on the idea of addiction. How come Sat Dharam Kaur is working in this field, designing these programs around it actually.

00:02:55 Sat Dharam
Thanks, Kevin. So I had a personal experience with addiction when as a child with my mother, who was addicted to alcohol. In the first four years of my life, she wasn’t. And my assumption is I had a fairly, no, I won’t say it. I was going to say fairly happy childhood, but I won’t say it. I got some good attention from her, let’s put it that way, in the first four years of my life. And then we had a terrible car accident and she was driving and my father was beside her in the front seat, and myself and my two sisters were in the back seat. And there was a flat tire and the car flew in the air something like 200 feet, but smashed up like an accordion. And at that time, nobody wore seat belts. So the doors flung open and we all flew out the doors into a nearby field, but my mother went through the windshield and so she suffered a terrible, um, blow to her prefrontal cortex in her head. And so that trauma for her was irreparable. And it was after that she started to drink alcohol. Soon after that her sister was in a car accident and two of her children were killed within a year. My mother just spun down further after that. And so alcohol became her relief or numb, numb her pain or something there was not, or, she didn’t find the services or the healing she required at that time, or it wasn’t available to her even though she was a nurse. And so she leaned on the alcohol, and I would say she leaned on me. I was the youngest of three and so I became her… I would say an emotional soother in some way, and so I picked up her pain. I was aware of her emotional pain and for much of my childhood, I wanted to save her. I couldn’t. So that helplessness, really, a sense of helplessness and the deep grief of a child and not being able to save their mother, that was alive in me. And so when I had the opportunity to create a yoga based addiction program, that’s what motivated me to embark on that.  Okay, I couldn’t heal my mother. She died of alcoholism in her early 60s. But I can support other people. So that’s how it, I would say,  the pieces that were in place to make this something that was important for me to do, that’s what it was, to heal the pain of my mother. And even though I couldn’t do that, I could heal the pain of others. Perhaps it was necessary for me too, because underneath that was my own helplessness. How do I live with that helplessness and that despair unless I’m helping others? So if I’m not helping others in some way, what I’m left with is despair and helplessness, and that’s not what I want to live with. So that’s where this whole thrust comes from, is the antidote to the despair and the helplessness buried in me from early childhood.

00:07:05 Kevin
Thank you for sharing that Sat Dharam, and I’m so sorry to hear that. I’m so sorry to hear that happened and that was your experience. It;s a heartbreaking story.

00:07:13 Sat Dharam
Yeah.

00:07:15 Kevin
Thank you.

00:07:15 Sat Dharam
Miraculous story too, that we all survived.

00:07:20 Kevin
Yeah. Thank you, I just wonder, and I hope this isn’t too personal to ask, how is that child right now who is trying to save her mother and was leaned on so heavily by her mother? Well, how’s she doing?

00:07:33 Sat Dharam
She’s a lot better now that it’s been so rewarding. A lot of the work I’ve done with addiction and I still do with addiction and with compassionate inquiry, and as a healer with naturopathic medicine, I’ve spent decades helping people, and so that need has been realized to be of service. The despair is more difficult because there’s a lot of despair in the world and it’s easy for me to feel that. I can feel it. That’s where my yoga practice comes in handy to move me out of the impossible states of despair through practices that take me away from that. I’m basically a positive person. I’m very optimistic by nature, and I was optimistic as a child, but I think everybody’s affected by the despair in the world right now, so I’m not immune to that. So that child in me feels that too. 

Kevin: Feels that pain? 

Sat Dharam: Absolutely.

00:08:36 Kevin
Thank you. I think even that I can feel myself learning about myself. And we’ve only just started having this conversation for 5 or 10 minutes. Right back you said something just out actually, you didn’t say it. You made a point of not saying it. You were about to say I had a happy childhood. And of course, anyone within the Compassionate Inquiry community, and who are familiar with the work of Gabor, Dr. Gabor Maté will know that is his in with people. When they say, “I had a reasonably happy childhood” and he’ll say, “Okay, let’s just talk about that…” and you didn’t go there. I wonder if you would take a few moments and talk to us then… what is the relationship between not having a happy childhood or believing that you had a happy childhood, not being able to recognise that your childhood wasn’t happy and addiction.

00:09:30 Sat Dharam
Yeah. Thanks, Kevin. So we first of all, we have to start with the word attachment, don’t we? So our initial need as a memo is to be with a parent, ideally a mother and a father Could at least one and ideally the mother in the 1st few months of our lives who can be loving, be attuned, be present, be caring, be nurturing, attend to our needs as we need them and so that we feel held secure, comforted, soothed as we needed. So in a sense that, and now we know from polyvagal theory that that adult figure then calms our nervous system and we can be our nervous system can develop in the way it’s supposed to when we have that kind of a regulating presence for the first few years of our lives. So that builds then what is called healthy attachment, secure attachment within the child of knowing that they’re going to be OK no matter what. They’re safe no matter what. Their needs are met no matter what, and in theory that child would be much less likely to have an addiction later on because inside of them. Is this like wholeness? And I’m OK because the world is treating me like I’m OK? So that sense of self is being OK, arises in utero, particularly the last three months of pregnancy and the first three years of our lives. And then we have this connection to ourselves, connection to our body, connection to our emotions. Our identity is mirrored. We we get the idea that we’re important, we matter, we’re loved. If all that is present, if that’s missing because the one of the one of the parents is already stressed or working outside of the home a lot of the time or distracted, we’re working on their own issues or there’s conflict between the parents and they’re always fighting, then the child’s needs are not met and then secure attachment won’t have developed. So then that child is looking for something to complete itself and that something is missing. And then the whole brain and the neurological circuits relating to pleasure and reward and calming and motivation may not develop fully for that child because we need the parent and that care for those circuits to develop. So then there’s something missing and that there’s a disconnection from the self, from the body, from the emotions. So when there’s something missing, if the child’s needs aren’t met, then they have to do something, they have to establish some sort of coping strategy to get their needs met. And they in in developing their coping strategy. Often they disconnect from there emotions, from their needs, from their authentic voice. So in terms of myself, one of my coping strategies was to meet my own needs, to not believe that somebody could do it for me, so to not ask for help, to be the strong one to do it. So that was a coping strategy that I had to develop because there must have been too many times that I was asking for help and I didn’t get it. So rather than ask for help and be disappointed and hurt and in pain as a free event, I don’t want that hurt anymore. I’m just going to do it myself. So that’s been one of my lifelong coping strategies because of whatever was missing for me in terms of attachment as a young child. Now underneath that, what’s underneath that coping strategy would be hurt, be sadness, be some shame. There’s some pain. So what am I going to do with that? So that need manifests. That would be the exile part. That little child in me still has those needs there. It is still there. So then what am I going to do to suit them, right? The pain is there. I’m going to have something to soothe it. So that’s where an addiction could develop possibly. And whatever the substance or behavior is that soothes the addiction is directly related to the need that wasn’t met. So if it was a need to be calmed my parent, maybe the addiction is marijuana. If the if it was a need for sweetness and comfort, maybe it’s sugar or an opiate. If it was a need for encouragement, then there’ll be some sort of stimulus. So we want to look at our addictive patterns. And from that we can gather maybe what was missing for the even individual when they were a child. So that that’s how the addiction is developed. It starts with some rake in the attachment to the parents and the child not being attuned to the child, not being allowed to be themselves, the child, and he’s not being met. And either they have to meet those needs themselves, or they have to become who the parent expects them to be, or they have to become who the parent needs them to be. I had to become who my mother needed me to be because her needs, her emotional needs, were bigger than mine. And so then what happens to me, right? What happens to my emotions? So then that’s what is the emptiness, these emotional needs that aren’t met that then the addiction fills that hole with.

00:16:02 Kevin
It’s interesting Sat Dharam, I’m listening to you and I know through our community and our, and Gabor’s teachings, Gabor quotes Almaas, a lot and Almaas talks about that. We don’t often notice the deficiency. We don’t often see Almaas calls it the hole, we don’t see the hole, we see the behavior that is trying to fill the hole. And I think for people, people listening to us and, and you having this conversation when we can look and see what is it that I’m addicted to, just as you’ve described, and then work back to notice what might be the deficiency, and might it be useful here? You mentioned it very briefly, Sat Dharam, and I think it’s really important. You mentioned Gabon’s definition of addiction is any substance or behavior, so from heroin to mobile phones, from sugar to gambling, from pornography to eating. So this isn’t these very stereotypical ideas of heroin use or alcoholism, and I think it’s really helpful for our listeners to be able to look at those and recognize those as addictions.

00:17:15 Sat Dharam
Yeah, absolutely. So let’s go through that definition of addiction. So it’s any behavior, whether it’s related to substance or not, where we have craving. So there’s the neurotransmitter dopamine is related to that. You want it, and you want it badly, and you can’t stop that craving, so there’s the inability to say no to it. It becomes an automatic circuit, and that’s called, some people call it the motivational brain circuit. It’s related to pleasure and reward, or the addiction reward pathway, the brain reward pathway, and it has unhealthy consequences. So it’s harmful to you and usually to the people around you, and you can’t stop. So that’s the definition Gabor’s definition of addiction.

00:18:11 Kevin
Yeah. And that, that’s a really important definition. So it’s not just substance use.

00:18:16 Sat Dharam
And actually there’s one more piece, is that the behavior of the substance gives you relief. So it’s a fix for the neurological circuit that’s not working. It really is a fix if I’m not able to. If I didn’t receive the love that I needed the way I needed it at different times in my development from my mother, there’s still this need to receive love. So let me tell you a funny story. So one of my cravings at different times can be sweet. I’m not addicted to it, right now, but it can be when I’m stressed. That’s what I’ll go for. And one of the ways I like that is matcha green tea latte and often from Starbucks. So it’s a beautiful thing when I travel the world and I go to the airports, I go to Starbucks and I get my magic green tea latte with swimming and its sweet. And I also make these at home for myself in the morning. But I was driving in my town a few years ago, they opened a Starbucks, and I drive in to the window, the drive in window Starbucks and ask for my matcha green tea latte and the woman hands it to me and suddenly I was aware. Oh my God, this is like breast milk on demand. Go to the window, it’s there, it’s available. I wasn’t breastfed, so here’s this very young part of me just wanting a sweet warm drink. Creamy, warm drink whenever I ask for it. And so I’m so grateful to Starbucks and those people at the counter for giving me what I need when I need it. And that’s a substitute for the breast milk. I didn’t get.

00:20:04 Kevin
In relation to the severity of addictions that there are, the questions that are rising in me is why would you deny yourself that? Why would you deny that little girl that substitute breast milk in the form of matcha green tea latte?

00:20:16 Sat Dharam
I don’t, only that it’s got sugar in it unless it’s really good matcha I don’t… the really good matcha I don’t mind if it’s not sweet but the bad matcha should taste the poor quality matches bitter.

00:20:27 Kevin
But you’re a purveyor. You’re a purveyor of fine green tea. Matcha latte. Yeah.

00:20:31 Sat Dharam
I am, I can tell you all the best brands.

00:20:34 Kevin
I’m going to invite you to share some more stories about yourself in just awhile. But again, for our listeners, I know we don’t want to drop into too much teaching as I as we’re chatting, but there’s something that may be likely to explain this idea of happy childhood and and I did have a happy childhood or I didn’t. Why might people not be able to recognize that they didn’t have a happy childhood?

00:21:01 Sat Dharam
Because it’s difficult for the child, on the one hand, to love their parents and to trust that their parents are going to take care of them, while simultaneously judging their parents or thinking that their parents are harming them in some way. So we can’t hold, as a child, we can’t hold both of those thoughts at the same time because our survival depends on trusting our parents that they’re going to take care of us and loving our parents. Our survival depends on that. So we can’t have that as a child, can’t have that opposite thought, that my parents are harming me, because then we couldn’t survive. It’s too much. So we disassociate from that or we forget it or we numb it or we don’t believe it or we cover it up or we pretend it’s not happening. So it was only when I was in my 30s perhaps, where I recognized, you know that I didn’t get the love that I needed from my mother. It took me a long time to actually, honestly recognize that. Yeah. Because we want to believe the best of our parents. We love them, we trust them. They’re everything to us. So how can you hold one?

00:22:19 Kevin
Sorry for interrupting, Sat Dharam. How was that process for you to learn that in your 30s that I didn’t get the love that I should have or that I needed, or why was that?

00:22:29 Sat Dharam
It was enlightening and there was grief, but it was also enlightening. And then I came to accept it. And it was through doing that that I really, you know, of course I love my mother and I expect that she loved me, but I would. But I have lots of ways that I could prove that she didn’t. But I expect that she was doing the best she could, as our parents do. I think I was very angry at her as a teenager.

00:22:59 Kevin
Yeah.

00:23:00 Sat Dharam
And I think then in my 30s, when I came to realize this, something shifted in that I became accepting, Oh, that’s just what happened. And I could also look at it from a place of, not just forgiveness, but also appreciation, because it was a big one when I realized, you know what, if your mother hadn’t been an alcoholic and you hadn’t experienced what you experienced, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing now. I wouldn’t have such a strong need to help people. I wouldn’t be interested in addiction, so that whole drama unfolding was necessary, unfortunately or fortunately, to be the groundwork from which I responded and am doing the work I’m doing now. So this is a beautiful part of it.

00:23:46 Kevin
It is.

00:23:47 Sat Dharam
No matter what’s happened to us, it can be composed for a gorgeous life later on, and we can make meaning of it, and it can be part of our unfolding potential. When we make meaning of what happened to us, use the resources we gained, and then use that in a way that’s fulfilling for ourselves. However, it’s important that we use it without it being the driver. So here’s the thing. If the driver in me, and it is sometimes, but if it was only to help others at the expense of myself that would be burnout that would be workaholism. That’s not OK. So what’s important with this whole scenario is to become conscious of your internal drivers, conscious of why do I push myself? What does this pusher in me needing? It needs to be validated. Who do I think I am if I need to be validated? I have no value. So I have to be aware of my core beliefs and the drivers of my personality that are filling up those holes, as Almaas said, trying to fill those holes. So really that a core belief of I have no value is – and I would say I don’t believe that now – but I was one of my core beliefs, deep unconscious belief. I have no value unless I justify my existence. That used to be one of my core beliefs. I have no value unless I justify my existence. And that’s a driver. So the more work I do, the more the pain is going to be because I haven’t changed the core belief. It’s still I have to keep justifying my existence by doing more. So that’s what has to shift in this journey of overcoming addiction is look at the underlying core beliefs that are driving the behaviors and come to place of unconditional self acceptance, self love, self forgiveness. So that we heal those early wounds of our childhood and recognize the difference between the true self and one of these drivers of the personality that started off as a little coping mechanism and became bigger and bigger overtime.

00:26:07 Kevin
Thank you, Sat Dharam. And you’ve mentioned something really important as well. I think in the world that we live in, the one that daughter was living when you talked about feeding this, this core belief of have to prove my value by being useful or and going back to that definition of addiction from Gabor any substance or behavior. Work is one that we don’t often recognize. Not only do we not recognize it, quite often it is celebrated. Yeah, he’s a fantastic man. She’s a wonderful woman. She works 16 hours a day, etcetera. So recognizing work as a means of soothing an emptiness that’s inside us, is really important for us and for our listeners.

00:26:47 Sat Dharam
Absolutely. And whole cultures have that addiction. So the value is the work, the amount of money you make, the possessions you have. But in a sense, the Western world is addicted to consumerism. Why? Because it means I have value if I have this item, right? So that’s getting us into big trouble and that’s what we want to shed some light on, is who are you really? And that’s where to heal addiction, we have to know ourselves. We have to connect to the beating in us that is beyond the personality, beyond the mind, beyond the entrapment, beyond the job, beyond the material possessions that we have, is we have to be OK with the being in us.

00:27:34 Kevin
You know, well, thank you. I’m very conscious that from a personal level. I would like to have very deep spiritual conversations with you. I’m not sure that this is the time of the place. Please say no if you don’t want to answer this question. So who is that? What is that true self that’s in us? What are we trying to return from or to?

00:27:57 Sat Dharam
There’s a being in every aspect of creation, whether it’s you or me or a bear or a coyote or a mountain or a lake, that is an expression of universal consciousness. What you would say… pure consciousness and that being is perfect as it is. It’s beyond time and space. It’s beyond duality, it’s pure presence and it’s pure awareness. That’s what I would say and it’s pure unconditional love.

00:28:43 Kevin
Thank you. Thank you Sat Dharam, I would love to move our conversation. I want tp have some time with you to talk about the development of compassionate inquiry and and through addiction healing practices etcetera. But there’s one little piece that I’m I’m really keen or people to hear. Maybe I’m keen to hear from myself. I had a sister who died through drug and, and, and trauma, uh, issues. And I can recognize in this moment, as I look back on her life, there was a fear in me of moving towards helping her. Her life was chaotic. It was crazy. There was a lot of drama and when I moved towards my sister, I would often get caught up in that drama. So that’s something that kept me away from my sister, which I deeply regret right now. But I also am aware that I didn’t know any better. When healing addiction, there there’s the the person affected, the person who is using and there’s often a family or a community around these people who are suffering too. How can we help them? What, what do those people need to know? Say it was me and there was a fear in me of moving towards my sister. What do I need to know? What would have helped me in that situation?

00:30:06 Sat Dharam
Possibly to… First of all, acceptance is the first word that comes. I believed I had to fix my mother. It was hard for me to accept my mother as a child. How do you accept a mother who’s not taking care of you? So it was hard for me as a child to accept that she had this addiction. I didn’t want her to have this addiction. It was hurting her, it was hurting me, it was hurting the family. So acceptance was not a possibility for me as a child and it’s probably not a possibility for you with your sister. But that would be the first thing, is to accept the person, where they’re at. And that even though addiction isn’t a choice, it’s a we can’t tell them not to do it. It doesn’t work. We also want to give them choice, stability, empowerment and safety. So how do you give somebody who’s addicted those things in whatever environment they’re in? Maybe you provide a safe place for them one night a month or one day a week. Invite them over to dinner. We also know the power of co-regulation and in the capacity of one person to bring somebody else through their presence, and their kindness and their care and their openness into an internal feeling of safety, is how can you be with a person like that without trying to change them by creating a safe, inviting, welcoming place for them, where they can exist as they are without blame and without shame. So I think that would be the first thing is to create safe places where there’s no blame, no shame that they can be who they are, and we’re going to accept them in just the way they are. And then from that place, whether that’s bringing people out of homelessness into their own apartments or whether it’s having them come and have meals with you or with a group every day that they can come and save place, have a meal, no one’s going to judge them. But when there’s that little bit of stability there, with something like that, then you can move to the next level. OK, now let’s engage in some play. You wanna play Frisbee with them? Go to a concert together, Create some… It’s connection. It’s really building connection, and then ongoing connection, and then the next piece would be opportunities for healing that they are invited to whenever they’re ready so that they make their choice whenever they’re ready. And then we’ve got to be there when they’re ready to get them into a recovery program or whatever it is. It’s going to work for them on their terms. I would say that’s kind of it. And surround them with good people. I’m not saying I won’t use the word good people, but surround them with people who have healthy habits so that they’re in a new environment with caring people who are modeling healthy habits rather than going back to people they were with before who are still addicted. So we’ve got to shift people when they’re willing and interested in shifting, and then keep them in environments that are life enhancing and supportive. And then look at, what are the gifts in this individual and see them for their possibility and help them manifest those gifts, whatever they are.

00:33:38 Kevin
Yeah. Thank you.

00:33:40 Sat Dharam
One more thing I like to use for addiction – Dopamine is a neurotransmitter related to pleasure and reward. Someone who is addicted is always looking for their substance or their behavior, right seeking. Isn’t it constant seeking? What are we going to have the next this or the next that’s? It’s a constant seeking. The other thing that’s important is that seeking has to be directed to something meaningful for the person. You can’t just take away the addiction. Where’s that seeking going to go? So we have to cultivate within the original, which gives you a sense of meaning, fulfillment sense, purpose, what you could at what’s your capacity and then create, help them find an Ave. to develop that Channel. So you move the channel from the addictive substance to something bigger that you can take that same dopamine circuit and direct it there overtime. O we need that too. Either way where is it going to go? There has to be another option to direct that seeking to warrants rather than the addictive substance.

00:34:46 Kevin
Yeah. Thank you, Sat Dharam. And that was very in depth. I wonder would you add a piece before we talk about the creation of Compassionate Inquiry and your role in that and why addiction is such a big thing in that? Would you add a piece to that last question around the people who are caring for people with addiction, caring for themselves? How is that important in that role?

00:35:10 Sat Dharam
It’s very important because otherwise we have codependency. And then somebody, like I would say I was codependent with my mother, and probably a few other people in my life, of believing that my own being depended on me fixing or helping that person, right? I would have no value unless I could fix or help that person. So that’s codependency. So am I doing it for them or am I doing it for me? I’m doing it for me. If I feel like I have to fix somebody, that’s for me, to prove my own value. So we have to be careful of that when there’s people that you love, or that you’re caring for, who have addictions, that you don’t get pulled in to deal with your own pain by helping the other. So we have to be really aware of that process. And if you are living with or supporting people with addictions and it’s not a codependent relationship, but you’re providing these safe places or providing food or being with this person in social encounters, then it’s very important that you also are taking care of yourself, and recognizing your own needs, and how to meet your own needs yourself, or with support of others, so that we can sustain the support of those. Basically every you see when compassionate inquiry every level and compassionate inquiry every needs support. So whether you’re a CI Practitioner – who’s supporting you? Or on our admin team, they need support. Our facilitators need support, our mentors need support. OWe all need someone to talk to. Whatever level we’re at, whether we’re the person who’s addicted or the person helping the person who’s addicted. Every layer of that healing spectrum needs somebody to support them. It could be peer support. It could be the person up above managing it all, but everybody needs support because otherwise we take it on, internalize it. So that’s what’s really important is to reach out for support and take care of your own nervous system, your own self-care. So that’s really well in place so that you’re not going to be depleted and frustrated by supporting somebody else. I hope I answered that.

00:37:34 Kevin
You did and and if I may paraphrase just very briefly, what I hear you say, I believe is that healing is  a communal thing.

00:37:44 Sat Dharam
Yeah, it’s a communal thing, a connection on every level and everybody being able to ask for help, and receive it in the way that they need it. Yeah.

00:37:56 Kevin
Yeah. Thank you. So then maybe we could switch, Sat Dharam, I’ve been talking to you for the last 30 minutes or so, or how long we’ve been here. It’s very clear you have a deep understanding of addiction through your own story and your own childhood and, and your mother and, and, and what happened there, your own healing. I’d love to hear a little bit more about how this manifested or, or grew into the work that you do. Can you talk to us a little bit about the inception or the creation of Compassionate inquiry and joining forces with with Doctor Gabor Mate?

00:38:30 Sat Dharam
Yeah, probably Between 2005 and 2008, I created a program for addiction recovery using yoga, meditation, breathing exercises, as well as naturopathy principles. And then I started teaching that in 2008 to groups. It was a 16 week program, 16 modules. And then in 2009 I read, I was teaching it in Toronto and at the same time I was reading Doctor Gabor Mate’s book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts on Addiction. And it seemed like a perfect fit to the work that I was doing. And Gabor had so much more experience in working with people in the Downtown East Side, and I didn’t have that level of experience working with people for addiction. So I thought to reach out to him to see if he would Co teach with me so that I could incorporate his years of experience and wisdom in the program. It was a piece that I was missing. And his understanding of psychology and neurology, all that neuroscience, and he said yes to that. And we then met in probably 2010 in person and then decided to work together and he co taught with me in 2012, 2015, 2016 in Vancouver, the Beyond Addiction Program. And I had by that time trained other people in Beyond Addiction, probably had 10 trainers worldwide by then. And so here he would come to the Saturday mornings we did one weekend a month for four months. Gabor would come to every Saturday morning and he would talk about addiction and the principles, and he would also work with some people one-on-one. I could see what he was doing with people one and one, which was what became compassion growing. And I thought, wow, I want to be able to do that and I want my trainers to be able to do that because we were realizing that there needed to be a modality of how you work with people one-on-one. We have this great group thing going on, but then how do you work with the trauma that’s behind the addiction? And so that was, it was so strong in me. I want to learn that and I want other people to learn it. And I was also aware at that time that Gabor was working in integration sessions with ayahuasca using Compassion Inquiry or what was called then Gabor’s method, and that he had people around him in the ayahuasca field that he was training and that they also needed to learn it. So this is what I was aware of. I want my people to learn it. I want his people to learn it. This would be a great service to everybody so that we could collectively utilize his approach. So then I videotaped most of all of the times that he was teaching the Beyond Addiction training, plus many more workshops that I either organized or helped organize for him. And through watching those videotapes, I was able to, in transcribing them, there were, along with a few other people, we transcribed them all. And it was through constantly watching that I could pick out the details of what he was doing and after having observed this, from, 2012 to probably 2017 or so, those five years, is when I really developed the framework for… okay, we’re going to we’re going to break this down into qualities, skills and stepping stones. How do we make it simple? How can you do this simply to teach it? OK, this seemed like the clearest way to do it, Quality skills and stepping stones. And I literally picked apart everything he was doing from the transcriptions. And I would categorize things, OK, he’s doing this here. He’s doing. There’s a skill, there’s a stuff. He’s still, he didn’t know what he was doing in terms of what’s a skill and what’s a stepping stone. In fact, he mixed them up all the time. He would say, here’s a stepping stone. He wasn’t a stepping stone. It was a skill, I know. And so I was able to create a structure really, that held it all. And every time I found something new that he did and I would find a place for it within that structure until we had the compression query map and then from there build the modules. So that’s how it all evolved. And it was over from 2012 to 2017, 2018 even, because in 2018, in January, he did the Compassionate Inquiry 2 day workshop in Vancouver. So it was after that one. So I had one from Toronto before then and I think, I think then the Edmonton one was after that, but it was after the one in Vancouver. Then I thought, okay, now we have enough. I have enough material now that I can put something together. We have enough videos. We have enough, and of course we didn’t have enough, but it was enough to put things together. And then we just kept recording more and more as he taught more workshops after that and gathering more material. But that was enough to create the structure. And then we had a first pilot with people that I invited people from the 2018 January Vancouver Compassionate Inquiry 2 day training to take this little pilot project in compassionate inquiry. And that was the beta test of eight modules. How does this work for you? And then after that it was training the first group of facilitators. And then after that, now we’re in January 2019, then we ran the first training. So 2018 was really training people and testing it, and then 2019 was the first program, and of course we just keep adding more material and fine tuning it as we go along.

00:44:35 Kevin
I have a curiosity, Sat Dharam, over here, where I’m from, there was an old television show and it was called This is Your Life. I don’t have you had that in Canada. So what would happen was that a person probably nearing the end of their career, they would be brought to a dinner. So it was a surprise. They didn’t know. And they would walk into this room and it was a television studio and the whole show would be dedicated to it. This is Your Life. And they used to have a big red binder that they would present it to the person at the end. So you had your children and you achieved this and you’ve done this work. And as you’re telling the story about dissecting and categorizing Gabor’s work, I had this idea of you approaching Gabor at some point with this folder and saying this is your work. I wonder how he received that when you had dissected and categorized and.

00:45:27 Sat Dharam
The first time I did it, he said no, that’s not it.

00:45:31 Kevin
Yeah.

00:45:34 Sat Dharam
So then I fine tuned it again. Then how about this? Oh yeah, that’s it. So it was a process, me gingerly saying at least the steps. And he was changing too, right? Because he, Gabor, is infinitely curious and infinitely interested in other approaches and integrates, as we know. I had to move with it too, and it’s worked out just fine. So it was a collaboration for sure of me saying how about this to you approve of this and you would say, yes, that’s great and no, until finally we have a great working relationship of trust and respect for how it unfolds.

00:46:15 Kevin
So he received it well, on a second or third attempt, then. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. So I’m conscious of our time as well, but I do want to ask and I’m getting a sense of listening to you, your own story and I know a little of Gabor’s story. I am still curious though around why are these programs landing in the world and why is addiction healing so important? Why are they happening?

00:46:42 Sat Dharam
Uh huh. We need more connection. We’ve lost to some degree, we’ve lost the tribe and even the nuclear family has split apart. I was looking at a cookbook the other day online and the person writing the cookbook said. “I wrote this cookbook and it’s a cookbook for meals for 12 people because I was tired of eating alone.” The encouragement is to cook meals for 12 people and invite 11 more people over for dinner so that nobody has to be alone eating. We’re disconnected from community. A lot of people are, and we’re disconnected from ourselves. And so what I see happening and what I am interested in creating is communities where people can heal together, share together whether they’re online or in person, eat together if you’re in person. And we need these communities to heal in and grow together. So Compassionate Inquiry is probably very much is one of those communities. The Beyond Addiction program is another one of those communities. It’s in relationship that we heal, and so it’s very difficult to heal on our own. So we need to create communities where people can be in relationship to one another, feel safe with one another, trust one another and be authentic with one another. And that can help to heal addiction. And because that community is missing, because the family, if we go back to early childhood, why is the mother stressed? Why is the father stressed? Because they’re not in community with the aunts and the uncles and grandparents helping out with the child. Why does the mother have to go to work? Why are we in this a society where there’s so much of the value is placed on material wealth. There’s a lot of things that have to change, but these are some of the, I think, causes of systemic addiction is the nuclear families rather than communities or tribes or even a very like a one person parent instead of a larger family. And then there’s so much stress on those parents that the child rearing isn’t as complete as it might be for the child.

00:49:13 Kevin
The undertone that I hear in that Sat Dharam, which is really delightful, is moving the responsibility for addiction away from someone who is addicted.

00:49:26 Sat Dharam
Yeah, It is the responsibility of the community. Yeah, it’s not. It’s not the responsibility of the addicted person. They have to want to change. It’s really the collective responsibility. We got ourselves in this mess together and the addictive person is just a symptom of, as Gamer calls it, the toxic culture. So how do we address the toxic culture and create a new paradigm, right? And and new way of being, new possibilities so that everyone is held, everyone can be welcomed, everyone can have a place, everyone is accepted. That’s what we have to create and when we’re working with people with addictions that we that’s what we want to create is that kind of a space where they can heal, feel safe and then grow in community with healthy people too, with people who are we know that people with addictions are often are around other people with addictions, and they are a community unto yourselves and in one way that’s wonderful if there’s a community. But on the other hand, when you’re trying to change habits and move out of addiction, we need to surround ourselves with people who don’t have addictions or not serious addictions, in order to heal. And then you go back to the whole nervous system thing. We need a whole bunch of people in that ventral bagel who can support others who are not quite in that state yet.

00:50:59 Kevin
Yeah, I just think that’s really important. Sat Dharam, for those living with addiction to here and it’s a code that is is very central to the compassion and inquiry teaching is… it’s not your fault.

00:51:13 Sat Dharam
Yeah, no. And so they, they, we just see how this goes again. Yeah. What’s wrong with you? Right. So that’s the first thing that we used to think about people with addictions. What’s wrong with you? So we move from that to what happened to you. Let me understand you from a place of compassion and care, the compassion of understanding. Let me understand your trauma, what happened to you? That’s why you’re in this predicament right now. So there’s no blame, no shame. It’s just what happened to you and then the next one is what happened to your ancestors because the tendency to addiction may not, it could be from our childhood experience, but our childhood experience is also the trauma also can be passed down through several generations. So we may be reflecting if we have an addiction more also from our ancestors, what they went through. So it’s what happened to your ancestors. And then finally the healing eventually is, you’re not what happened to you. Once we heal and process all of that, metabolize all of that, go through all that pain, release all that pain, get to the other side, then we recognize… Oh, here’s back to my true identity. My true identity is not what happened to me. My true identity is this ever present essence in me that can never be damaged. That’s where we want to take people. But that’s a process. It’s a long process of healing that can be done only through relationship, I believe, and in community.

00:52:51 Kevin
Thank you Sat Dharam, we’re back full circle back around to attachment to community.

00:52:56 Sat Dharam
Yeah.

00:52:58 Kevin
I just want to add in a little figure there, and then I’m going to ask you a final question. I’ve been doing just doing some work myself, and when we talk about ancestral trauma, there’s something in my mind, maybe it’s from the movies or something. When we think of ancestors, we think of thousands of years ago. But it in my own history, So the Irish famine, which isn’t a word I like to use. And I’m not so sure it was a famine, but that was 1846. And even that seems, like 1846 seems like thousands of years ago when when we just think of the number. But my grandfather’s grandfather was alive then, my grandfather’s grandfather. So my grandfather would have known the person that was alive in the in 1846 through that eye. So it’s not that long ago. It’s recent history. And it wouldn’t be surprising at all that the emotional attunement or development of my grandfather’s grandfather would be present in my life. It’s not that long ago for people.

00:53:57 Sat Dharam
It’s absolutely true, Kevin. Thanks for bringing that up. So that’s how it’s passed on through epigenetics. So the genes are switched on or off based on the traumas that we experienced as young children, but also the traumas that come through our ancestors through the egg and the sperm. So it would have been 100%, that famine.

00:54:17 Kevin
Yeah, yeah, like, but before I thought the Irishman was very distant, but it’s not that distant at all.

00:54:23 Sat Dharam
No. Yeah. So it’s very important that we investigate as you have, what did our ancestors go through just to have more understanding of where some of these behaviors come from in us. Because we may not know how come I’m like this and it’s maybe have nothing to do with this lifetime, but from something that happened through your ancestors that were still carrying or responding to.

00:54:46 Kevin
And when we think about recent wars and you know in World War Two, World War One, etcetera, etcetera, they are not very far away at all. They’re,  very immediate history. Thank you, Sat Dharam. Uh, Sat Dharam, before I ask you one final question, which might be a slightly playful question, but is there anything that we haven’t spoken about today that you feel it’s important to, to lean into or to speak about?

00:55:11 Sat Dharam
Well, maybe one thing is, that I really like also, Dr Mark Lewis’s books on addiction, and one of the things he says is that addiction is just one step on this journey of self development. It needn’t. We needn’t see it as a terrible thing, but rather as part of the journey that we overcome and that many people when they move beyond addiction, or even as they’re addicted, really, um, contribute great things. And sometimes because of the addiction, right, as I said with my mother too. So just to not treat it as a terrible thing, but rather a symptom of a society that’s not quite in balance and families that are stressed and that can be, we can create a different culture, so that it can be healed. And that’s, I think, what we’re trying to do with compassionate inquiry.

00:56:20 Kevin
Thank you, Sat Dharam. When you spoke earlier about your own story, I was thinking of the name of this podcast, which is The Gifts of Trauma.

00:56:27 Sat Dharam
Yeah.

00:56:28 Kevin
And of Gabor’s second most recent video, which was the wisdom of trauma. And it’s a really, it’s a really different view of looking at our behaviors right now and trying to find the wisdom in there and the gifts in there and, and how we can use that to support and help and build community and heal each other. That’s a really different, it really is a very different model from shaming, blaming, ostracizing, criminalizing.

00:56:55 Sat Dharam
Yeah. Ultimately we want to look at the addiction as a possible growth media for something different. It’s just that we need to be nurtured to bring the best out of it, to transform that into something that’s that’s going to be positive.

00:57:11 Kevin
Thank you. Final question, comment from yourself. You might have already said it, but if you could whisper a few words in the ear of humanity, what would they be?

00:57:30 Sat Dharam
It’s okay. Everything’s gonna be alright. You’re not alone, and there’s help.

00:57:40 Kevin
I feel that relaxing my nervous system as I sit here. It’s okay, you’re not alone and there’s help. Sat Dharam Kaur, I am delighted to have this opportunity to speak to you on the Gifts of Trauma podcast from Campaign State Inquiry. Thank you for joining us.

00:57:59 Sat Dharam
Thank you so much, Kevin, lovely to be with you.

00:58:06 Rosemary

If you’ve been listening to our podcast and are curious about the transformative power of Compassionate Inquiry, you are invited to join us on Saturday, February 22nd for a six hour online experiential introduction to the Compassionate Inquiry approach and community. Whether you’re a healthcare professional, therapist, coach, or simply someone seeking trauma informed personal healing or professional growth, the CI Experience event invites you to witness live demonstrations, learn practical techniques, participate in reflective conversations, and connect with a supportive community of like minded individuals all in a single immersive day. This event will be recorded and as a participant, you’ll have lifetime access to the event recording and so much more. The CI Experience takes place on February 22nd. To learn more and register, just follow the link in the show notes. 

The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma, healing, transformation, and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity. Listen on Apple, Spotify, all podcast platforms, rate, review, and share it with your clients, colleagues, and family. Subscribe and you won’t miss an episode. 

Please note this podcast is for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for personal therapy or a DIY formula for self therapy.